The Depths of Chaparral Heights

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:03 am

"Dreams In The Witch House".

JJ Burke · Post by **JJ Burke** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 10:29 am

for the shape of the library? i haven't read it, but i'll check it out.. if it's that similar, we'll just say it was hp lovecraft approvingly guiding my hand from the infinite beyond

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 5:33 pm

Hehehe. I haven't read your thing yet, but the mention of spokes and shapes and stuff made me instantly think "Dreams In The Witch House".

Enkil · Post by **Enkil** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:18 pm

That's one of my favorite Lovecraft stories but I don't really see how it's relevant to the library. It's been a while since I've read it though.

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:22 pm

It was okay. Nothing special.

Enkil · Post by **Enkil** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 7:27 pm

It was awesome. Come on, bending dimensions through math and magic, can you ask for anything more?

JJ Burke · Post by **JJ Burke** » Fri Jul 28, 2006 8:27 pm

Jesus Prime wrote:Hehehe. I haven't read your thing yet, but the mention of spokes and shapes and stuff made me instantly think "Dreams In The Witch House".

great, so you ignored the spoiler warnings then. what does it take to get you to play along, for crying out loud

Jesus Prime · Post by **Jesus Prime** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 4:47 pm

but yes, the hexagons, the spokes, all that stuff i'm taking credit for.. until someone goes to the trouble of exposing my unconscious fraud

I saw that, and thought of the weird-as-fuck stuff in "Dreams...", added the two, and got five. Or something.

JJ Burke · Post by **JJ Burke** » Sat Jul 29, 2006 7:27 pm

less rithmetic, more reading and riting

E.A. Lovecraft · Post by **E.A. Lovecraft** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 1:04 am

The story is awesome, JJ. If I dropped fourteen bucks on an anthology and the current incarnation of "The Depths of Chaparral Heights" was in it, I wouldn't have any complaints about its inclusion.

The Narration
It's a strong tale with vivid description. As a reader, I felt as if I was right there beside Emiel and Robert as they explored Chaparral Canyon and the plateau. You've mentioned changing the perspective to 3rd person. I think that would be a huge mistake.

I do think some aspects of the story, particularly Robert's journal entries, could be cropped to quicken the pace and sharpen the narrative's effect. And I wouldn't worry about the quality of the teenager's writing. As an English teacher, I can tell you it's a bit uncommon, but it is far from unseen.
The Structure
The events unfold in a manner that effectively builds tension without revealing too much too soon, developing a nice transition from curiosity to worry to fear and then to hopelessness. The latter feeling is, IMO, extremely important to Mythos tales . . . something many authors, unfortunately, overlook.
The Unknown
I love, loVE, LOVE that very little about the reality of the horror is revealed. Too many horror stories try to explain everything, reflecting our inate hunger to know. IMO, maintaining a healthy dose of the unknown is what allows a great horror story to shove a writhing gutload of despair down the throats of its readers.

Take Stephen King's Pet Sematary for example. It's a kick-ass tale that reveals nothing about the horror other than there might be some creature (that the Micmac Indians call "Wendigo") in the woods, and if you bury a loved one in the stoney ground they come back as homicidal crack whores. We never know what the wendigo is; where it comes from; what it thinks; what its powers, motivations, and weaknesses are; if it has anything to do with the resurrections; or if it's even really out there . . . but we sure as shit know we do not want to be anywhere near where the damn thing might be. But I digress.
The Missed Connections
I never made the connection between the multiples (i.e. the twins in the park and the triplet ghouls in the library) with the doppleganger that answers the phone at the end. That the doppleganger is a creation of the horror is readily apparent, and it packs a suitable "holy crap!" punch, but I don't think there's anything that allows the reader to logically make the connection to the twins.

I picked up on the sense that something sentient was inside Emiel, but not that the same had happened to Robert. There was a point during Robert's journal that I suspected something akin to Yithian possession, but that eventually fell to the wayside.

I feel that Chuck Ogden's role should have been foreshadowed. To be honest, I thought he was going to turn out to be Grumpo. I'm also not sure what it was from the plastic bag that made the custodian flee. One of the poems, something Robert scrawled, the resin on the newspaper? Are we supposed to know for certain?
The Mythos References
Personally, I think the gibberish:

FUN GLUING IGLOO ENOUGH ZULU RULE YEAH WE’RE GONNA LIFT HÄAGEN
FIND LOUIE MY GLOW MASK TOOTH YOUR LYING MONOCLE TOBOGGAN
THE IN CLUE HE DIDN’T KNOW MUST FOOL WHO ARE ALL YOU GONE GLYPH JOGGIN’
is all that needs to be inserted into the story. The closer approximations of "Cthulhu" and "R'lyeh" that follow it (in Robert's journal entries and the poems) are old hat, IMO. The aquatic features of the twins are a bit stock as well. My thought was (later on) that it would make for better continuity if the twins showed disturbing features fully realized in the ghouls.

All in all, I greatly enjoyed reading the story. I know you wanted to emulate Lovecraft to a degree, but to be honest, I kept thinking Robert E. Howard; especially during the third part. In the end, my biggest piece of advice is don't let our comments gnaw at you. Hopefully, what we suggest can help, but in the end you have to pen what feels right to you.

Pinonomicon · Post by **Pinonomicon** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:07 am

I loved this story. I especially liked the way things were so confusing and odd for both the narrator and reader. I have to agree with the criticism of the young man as such an eloquent writer. The fact is that there are many young people who could write like that if they gave serious thought to composition, got out their thesaurus etc. but it was a journal entry and not a competition entry.
Another thing I didn't quite get was the relationship between Robert and the narrator. I think it needs some explaination of why they corresponded with each other, and likewise a little clarification of the 'drop-box' idea.
I never picked up on the multiples during the story either. Maybe if we encountered a few more oddly similar people, perhaps through the journals, the connection would be easier.
Finally I have to say this, it bothered me from the start...the name, it just seems stilted and oxymoronic to me. Below Chapparel Heights or Within Chapparel Heights or something would have seemed more apposite to me.
I haven't read a lot of Mythos fiction, outside of HPL himself, but this is certainly one of the best I've read online.

JJ Burke · Post by **JJ Burke** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 9:22 am

wowee wow wow! excellent reviews gentlemen! not just favorable, i mean well-done.

E.A. Lovecraft wrote:The story is awesome, JJ. If I dropped fourteen bucks on an anthology and the current incarnation of "The Depths of Chaparral Heights" was in it, I wouldn't have any complaints about its inclusion.

cool! if anybody has suggestions for where to submit the final draft, let me know. i think i've mentioned before that i don't know who's who and what when where. why? beats me

You've mentioned changing the perspective to 3rd person. I think that would be a huge mistake.

i was talking about the next story i want to do. i think.
i'm taking out some pieces of the journal, and possibly inserting a couple of clarifying sentences. there are a few things that robert could say more naturally, but i don't think it will take a massive overhaul..

I love, loVE, LOVE that very little about the reality of the horror is revealed. Too many horror stories try to explain everything, reflecting our inate hunger to know.

that's a common element in all my favorite mythos stories. when i read my first one, which was stephen king's 'crouch end' in high school, it was the first time in a long time that i actually felt a little bit spooked and giddy from a story, and it's because i never saw the whole picture.

I never made the connection between the multiples (i.e. the twins in the park and the triplet ghouls in the library) with the doppleganger that answers the phone at the end.

yep, reading those parts again, i see it's not clear at all. with this in mind, would you feel different about it if i used the following introductory quote (previously omitted because it seemed sort of gaudy to me)? it might help to tie those things together:
"Uniqueness is so commonplace a property of living things that there is really nothing unique at all about it. A phenomenon can’t be unique and universal at the same time. Even individual, free-swimming bacteria can be viewed as unique entities, distinguishable from each other even when they are the progeny of a single clone." —Lewis Thomas, The Medusa and the Snail
it also works as an acknowledgement of this story being inspired by and related to the mythos. opinions?

I picked up on the sense that something sentient was inside Emiel, but not that the same had happened to Robert. There was a point during Robert's journal that I suspected something akin to Yithian possession, but that eventually fell to the wayside.

well robert had been there his whole life, and it was emiel's first time visiting from outside. maybe that can be stated more clearly...

I feel that Chuck Ogden's role should have been foreshadowed. To be honest, I thought he was going to turn out to be Grumpo.

i think i can help this by letting robert say that grumpo is his grandfather when he's first mentioned, and then refer to his death at the part with the voice.

I'm also not sure what it was from the plastic bag that made the custodian flee. One of the poems, something Robert scrawled, the resin on the newspaper? Are we supposed to know for certain?

it's the resin.. that's why he thinks robert found a 'stronghold of resistance' in that place where the resin comes out of the stones. i'll see if there's a better way to explain that...

Personally, I think the gibberish ... is all that needs to be inserted into the story.

i think you're right. the spelling attempts are dead weight.. *snip*

The aquatic features of the twins are a bit stock as well. My thought was (later on) that it would make for better continuity if the twins showed disturbing features fully realized in the ghouls.

yeah, i couldn't resist giving somebody 'the innsmouth look,' yet never had a very solid reason for it. i don't want chaparral heights to be innsmouth west! i'll think of something

Pinomicon wrote:Another thing I didn't quite get was the relationship between Robert and the narrator. I think it needs some explaination of why they corresponded with each other, and likewise a little clarification of the 'drop-box' idea.

i was thinking of saving that for a separate episode.. something more humorous than this one.

I never picked up on the multiples during the story either. Maybe if we encountered a few more oddly similar people, perhaps through the journals, the connection would be easier.

what do you think of that lewis thomas quote (above)? if i use that at the opening, do you think it would be enough for the idea to snowball more substantially?

Finally I have to say this, it bothered me from the start...the name, it just seems stilted and oxymoronic to me. Below Chapparel Heights or Within Chapparel Heights or something would have seemed more apposite to me.

hehehehe.. i know, it's pretty campy. i just seemed so obvious to me, like a bad pun, that i had to slap it on there. anybody else think it's over the top? too stupid? too cute? you won't hurt my feelings, just speak your mind...

you guys have provided a great load of insight, enhancing my ability to see what i'm doing. i'm dedicating this story to the temple of dagon, without which i could have easily shrugged off this project as i have shrugged off so many thousands in the past. thanks again

Hodgson · Post by **Hodgson** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 11:46 am

The name Depths of Chapparel Heights is all right with me, sounds good and makes literal sense. But if it consistently annoys others, maybe you should call it something else.

I essentially agree with what others are saying about the voice of the narrator, although I hope you don't go too far in the other direction. The things he has to describe call for a certain amount of articulance. Maybe what we're talking about is intelligent but natural. For me, any expression or phrase ordinary in non-fiction writing would probably fit him without trouble. I would assume that he was an habitual reader, that's all.

E.A. Lovecraft · Post by **E.A. Lovecraft** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 5:44 pm

if anybody has suggestions for where to submit the final draft, let me know.

DarkMarkets.com should lead you in the right direction. And after you've tooled around their site for a while, email the webmaster and tell him his color scheme blows.

would you feel different about [the replicated people] if i used the following introductory quote?

No. It's an interesting quote, but I think what blocks the realization that people are being replicated--not simply born as twins--needs to be addressed in the narration. If the creation of replicants is a crucial part of the horror, then you might want to be a little more direct in developing that aspect.

i think i can help [the Grumpo/Chuck Ogden confusion] by letting robert say that grumpo is his grandfather when he's first mentioned, and then refer to his death at the part with the voice.

That would help, but I think it would be good to introduce a reason for Chuck's involvement before we see him in the library. It doesn't have to be overt or lengthy. Even though the events in the library held my attention, I kept thinking, "why is Chuck there?"

I just want to add, that the paragraph where Emiel discusses cleaning and practicing with the gun, leading us to believe he's preparing for a fight before dropping the bomb that he's preparing for suicide, is pretty clever.

JJ Burke · Post by **JJ Burke** » Tue Aug 01, 2006 6:51 pm

E.A. Lovecraft wrote:If the creation of replicants is a crucial part of the horror, then you might want to be a little more direct in developing that aspect.

i'm not sure how crucial it is, but i would like to have a little more (at least subconscious) correlation between the replicants. i have a different, crazier idea for the park twins.. they're not going to be fishy anymore, and i'm going to use emiel's encounter with them to inject a little more continuity for the replication idea.

...I think it would be good to introduce a reason for Chuck's involvement before we see him in the library. It doesn't have to be overt or lengthy.

that might be tough.. all emiel has to go on is the episode with marine ogden in the journal. i'll keep thinking about it.

I just want to add, that the paragraph where Emiel discusses cleaning and practicing with the gun, leading us to believe he's preparing for a fight before dropping the bomb that he's preparing for suicide, is pretty clever.

thanks mang, glad it worked for you

about that lewis thomas quote: was i right about it being gaudy, or do you think it would benefit the story to use it as an intro? does it telegraph too much about the ending? does it make me look desperate for credibility? i'm still pretty conflicted about whether to use it or not